Curse

jazilla · Mar 08, 2011, 09:10 PM // 21:10

the warrior is in GW2, the dervish is not. let the dervish have its time in the spotlight.

OutlawFMA · Mar 08, 2011, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Play in hard mode, elementalist damage is shit.

Go Air Ele, the armor pen+cracked armor lets you keep your damage up.

afya · Mar 08, 2011, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by OutlawFMA

Go Air Ele, the armor pen+cracked armor lets you keep your damage up.

while other professions just ignore the armor

LifeInfusion · Mar 08, 2011, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by OutlawFMA

Go Air Ele, the armor pen+cracked armor lets you keep your damage up.

Invoke + Chain are 3 targets. 36.42DPS x3 targets if you have a 40/40 set and 16 air magic , casting on 60 armor or 80 armor w/ cracked armor. In reality most mobs run 100-120 armor so it drops to 22-28DPS (100 or 120 cracked). I'd rather run Spiteful Spirit or an Illusion Mesmer. Neither are capped at 3 targets and have auxiliary functions, plus you don't need air attunement + Aura of restoration to foot the insane energy cost (1.440e/sec after attunement + AoR).

A SoS Rit will put that damage out on a single target (~120DPS) and have 5 slots and 100 attribute pts to work with (SoS+Bloodsong+Painful Bond=5 slots remain).

Pugs Not Drugs · Mar 08, 2011, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Lets compare some warrior and dervish skills:

Onslaught and Primal Rage
Definitly Onslaught. Trading 8% less ATSP for extra adrenaline and half damage

Wounding Strike with Eviscerate/Any Deep wound Skill
AOE Deep Wound any with a quick CD any day. All you need is a spammy enchantment

Reapers Sweep and Earthshaker
This one goes to the warriors. The aoe is better and the kd isnt conditional

Heart of Fury with Any Warrior IAS
Lol this one isnt even a contest. Heart of Fury all the way

Zelous Vow and Warriors Endurance
Endurance Lasts longer and isnt removable, but vow gives alot more energy return and only nets dervishes -1 less energy regeneration

*lemming* · Mar 08, 2011, 09:54 PM // 21:54

I can't tell if this thread is supposed to be about PvP or PvE.

Chrisworld · Mar 08, 2011, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pugs Not Drugs

the update to mesmers made rangers useless in pve

I'm sorry but I laughed pretty hard at this. I can't take anything else you say seriously after you compare a Mesmer to a Ranger. You do know that Ranger interrupts are a small piece of the Ranger cake and that Rangers can do a hell of a lot more than interrupt?

Pugs Not Drugs · Mar 08, 2011, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrisworld

I'm sorry but I laughed pretty hard at this. I can't take anything else you say seriously after you compare a Mesmer to a Ranger. You do know that Ranger interrupts are a small piece of the Ranger cake and that Rangers can do a hell of a lot more than interrupt?

Not in PvE they cant. Damage wise rangers are pretty useless, and were generally only useful in areas with enemies that needed to be shut down, which a mesmer now does 10 times better. The only viable build i can see now is like maybe a barrage sy spammer with a rit hero spamming splinter or something like that, but even then, the rit is doing most the damage, especially in hard mode. it would be better to just use the splinter on a dervish and get the same sy spam with alot more damage.

Cuilan · Mar 08, 2011, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pugs Not Drugs

Not in PvE they cant. Damage wise rangers are pretty useless, and were generally only useful in areas with enemies that needed to be shut down, which a mesmer now does 10 times better.

Rangers weren't really wanted for shut down long before the mesmer update. Generally speaking rangers carry an interrupt or two on a bar that isn't anything shut down based.

I occasionally see a BHA ranger with some "old school" build, but then I also see people with Ursan.

Ghull Ka · Mar 08, 2011, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Rangers weren't really wanted for shut down long before the mesmer update. Generally speaking rangers carry an interrupt or two on a bar that isn't anything shut down based.

I occasionally see a BHA ranger with some "old school" build, but then I also see people with Ursan.

I disagree. Post-Nightfall, Pre-EotN, rangers with BHA were highly sought after in PUGs.

The Domain of Whatever-It-Is with the elementalist boss dryders who Lightning Bolt everyone to death in one shot comes to mind. BHA was priceless for shutdown back in the day. Your BHA hero wasn't too shabby either, for those times when you couldn't find a human to tag along.

novawhiz · Mar 08, 2011, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Alice_

1.)
6.) NOTHING does more damage than even a decent human playing an elementalist.

except for a hero Rit,Necro,Mes, or Monk. Or any melee with splinter and maybe Mop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Alice_

1.)

7.) I play all professions in HM and ALL are viable.

But this i agree 100% with. Dervs were fine before the update. They were never disadvantaged the way people whined about them. And i hardly see whats so great about new update. Now that vanq that took 55min on my old derv now takes 50min on my new derv. Yipee.

Id take +endgame content update or complete SF/obby/bonder rape over a profession update any day

LifeInfusion · Mar 08, 2011, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by novawhiz

except for a hero Rit,Necro,Mes, or Monk. Or any melee with splinter and maybe Mop.

But this i agree 100% with. Dervs were fine before the update. They were never disadvantaged the way people whined about them. And i hardly see whats so great about new update. Now that vanq that took 55min on my old derv now takes 50min on my new derv. Yipee.

Id take +endgame content update or complete SF/obby/bonder rape over a profession update any day

My ele uses a spear and procs splinter weapon when I miss AP on sin spam. That's the state of ele damage in HM.

Cuilan · Mar 08, 2011, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghull Ka

I disagree. Post-Nightfall, Pre-EotN, rangers with BHA were highly sought after in PUGs.

Yes I remember there being times and with missions like Boreas Seabed, but they fell out of being amazing long before the mesmer update.

turbo234 · Mar 08, 2011, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Alice_

6.) NOTHING does more damage than even a decent human playing an elementalist.

whats hard mode?

X Dr Pepper X · Mar 09, 2011, 12:25 AM // 00:25

OP is wrong.

Dervs seem to be where they should have been the entire time. They are pretty reasonable in terms of their capability.

What's dumb is the overcentralization of armor ignoring spells and damage sources from Mesmers, Rits, and Necros overshadowing Eles because they are limited to elemental damage against HM foes with stupidly high armor.

HM monsters should have roughly triple the health of a NM monster counterpart and the same amount of armor as the NM monster does. It deemphasizes armor ignoring damage and buffs physicals and elemental damage.

Bandwagon · Mar 09, 2011, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

I can't tell if this thread is supposed to be about PvP or PvE.

With quotes like:

Quote:

Originally Posted by joseph Mckennie

............rangers make pretty good interrupters, sure, but have you tried using condition skills? Its hard for an enemy to deal with being burned, poisoned, bleeding, crippled...

I am not surprised people are confused about the thread's scope. (I think it is PvE btw)

Oh and since everyone is doing it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Alice_

1.) Mesmers did zero damage before their update and needed a PVE buff badly

Yup.

Quote:

2.) The Dervish primary attribute was absolute crap in PVE

Yup.

Quote:

2.) Both of the aforementioned professions could still be effective before their updates

Yup. Also you have two 2).

Quote:

3.) Communing spirits are still better than channeling spirits, SoS just made it popular to spam (the real imbalanced skill is not SoS but summon spirits)

I think its a combination of things that led to Rits being amazing at spirit wrangling. Both SoS and Summon Spirits were part of the combo.

Quote:

4.) Rangers are AMAZING (if you argue with me on this you are doing it wrong) just cause ranger heroes stink doesn't mean people playing them do too.

If Rangers are amazing, Dervishes, Warriors, Assassins, Monks, Mesmers, Ritualists, Necromancers and even Paragons are AMAZING +100......

Quote:

6.) NOTHING does more damage than even a decent human playing an elementalist.

.....and Eles are most definitely AMAZING -2.

Quote:

7.) I play all professions in HM and ALL are viable.

This is true, even with the imbalances and the nerfs and buffs and the percieved inferiority, its all still viable in PvE.

There are a lot of posts in this thread that sport a lot of inaccurate information, but the worst offender in my humble opinion was:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pugs Not Drugs

Lets compare some warrior and dervish skills:

Simply because A=!=B, in other words stop comparing Apples to Oranges, especially in PvE where it doesn't really matter because they are both circular fruit in the end.

PvP on the other hand...

thedukesd · Mar 09, 2011, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Dr Pepper X

HM monsters should have roughly triple the health of a NM monster counterpart and the same amount of armor as the NM monster does. It deemphasizes armor ignoring damage and buffs physicals and elemental damage.

They should had consider this long time ago. Probably now it's to late.

If you ask me:
- paragons needs a change (a major one if you ask me for both pve and pvp)
- ele need a minor change something to actually improve their damage in hm, i have in my head several ideas: the easiest one to implement is to change one of their skill to make 0..3 spells do armour ignoring damage only when you use ele skills and this skills chosed from/moved to skills in energy storage line, as a drawback this skills ends if you use non ele skills , goep is a good candidate for split and i bet no ele will be upset if this skill is moved to energy storage and changed like this for pve " Your next 0..2..3 spells do armour ignoring damage. No effect if you use non elementalist skills. Ends if you use non elementalist skills." and for pvp "For 25 seconds, your elemental attributes are boosted by 0..2 for your next 10 spells.", the hardest idea to implement is to make most of the mobs in an particular hm area (when i refer to area this means an vanq zone or a mission) to one of the 4 elemental damage types (when i say vulnerable i'm thinking that ~80% of the monsters in that area have 60 al vs one single elemental damage and all of those ~80% have 60 al against that elemental damage)(hopefully this last one will make ele play water in pve...).
Also reduce activation time to attunements to 1s in pve. The is absolutly no reason to keep them this at 2, if a mob what to rupt it, it will rupt it even if the 40% hct took place.
- rebalance the melee classes (pve and pvp) (a change to shadow form pve version so only the sin is able to maintain it is one of the things i'm thing ( this was wrong from the start if you ask me; shadow form compare to obsy or vow of silence is the only skill that can be maintaned by any class without using cons, not to mention the drawback and activation times compare with obsi or the fact that you can be healed and that you can cast spells compared to vow of silence were shadow form is clearly the best option...), but the list is kinda long)

Zahr Dalsk · Mar 09, 2011, 03:39 AM // 03:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by OutlawFMA

Go Air Ele, the armor pen+cracked armor lets you keep your damage up.

It'll still suck compared to physical and spirits.

LifeInfusion · Mar 09, 2011, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedukesd

They should had consider this long time ago. Probably now it's to late.

If you ask me:
- paragons needs a change (a major one if you ask me for both pve and pvp)
- ele need a minor change something to actually improve their damage in hm, i have in my head several ideas: the easiest one to implement is to change one of their skill to make 0..3 spells do armour ignoring damage only when you use ele skills and this skills chosed from/moved to skills in energy storage line, as a drawback this skills ends if you use non ele skills , goep is a good candidate for split and i bet no ele will be upset if this skill is moved to energy storage and changed like this for pve " Your next 0..2..3 spells do armour ignoring damage. No effect if you use non elementalist skills. Ends if you use non elementalist skills." and for pvp "For 25 seconds, your elemental attributes are boosted by 0..2 for your next 10 spells.", the hardest idea to implement is to make most of the mobs in an particular hm area (when i refer to area this means an vanq zone or a mission) to one of the 4 elemental damage types (when i say vulnerable i'm thinking that ~80% of the monsters in that area have 60 al vs one single elemental damage and all of those ~80% have 60 al against that elemental damage)(hopefully this last one will make ele play water in pve...).
Also reduce activation time to attunements to 1s in pve. The is absolutly no reason to keep them this at 2, if a mob what to rupt it, it will rupt it even if the 40% hct took place.
- rebalance the melee classes (pve and pvp) (a change to shadow form pve version so only the sin is able to maintain it is one of the things i'm thing ( this was wrong from the start if you ask me; shadow form compare to obsy or vow of silence is the only skill that can be maintaned by any class without using cons, not to mention the drawback and activation times compare with obsi or the fact that you can be healed and that you can cast spells compared to vow of silence were shadow form is clearly the best option...), but the list is kinda long)

Do people use water eles vs Destroyers w/119 armor to cold and 139-159 to other stuff (83 for casters to water, 103 to nonfire, 123 to fire)? No. They just use necros or mesmers and say "forget it" to all the calculations involved for figuring out elemental damage (cracked armor, armor penetration, mob level, armor buff skills like armor of earth or Stand your ground, armor level, etc). Even if Searing Flames did armor ignoring damage it still wouldn't match Keystone signet (57*6 every 10 seconds + 57x2 from sig of clumsiness + 47*2 from unnatural sig) or Ineptitude mesmers. Savannah's heat 300 [email protected] (+75 from ebon standard) causes scatter (with 25 cooldown) or Firestorm's [email protected] over 10s are much harder to pulloff. Elemental damage is relegated to AP bars with Eruption/Churning Earth + optional EBSOH (if you drop YMLAD/sin/FH) unless you want to spam stone daggers/magnetic surge/ebon hawk/stoning for 20-30 seconds like Herta & Kai Ying. You could get away with Glyph of Renewal but there's a 20 downtime on arcane echo. There's no other options for AOE, seeing how water does about 80 (Ice spikes, Rust , Maelstrom, and Deep Freeze are the only AOEs) and air is 3 targets.

What's troublesome is Snow storm does as much elemental damage (200) as 15 spec Eruption/Churning Earth/Searing Heat/Teinai's Heat/Breath of Fire and is on 10 cooldown and 1 cast yet nobody uses it because it's a PVE skill. Optimally you'd have 2 copies, with EBSOH = 275*2=550.

If Eles were melee range...
If you go the PBAOE route and run Armor of Earth + Shockwave + Aftershock + teinai's Crystals/Crystal Wave it's still sad since you're pumping out 100 or so armor ignoring at the cost of removing all conditions, and have 20 cooldown on each armor ignoring damage and Shockwave which while on paper does 180, does more like 90 (Aftershock will do ~50). That's why people farm with Wastrel spam E/Me.

If somehow you go nuts and decide to run earth + fire PBAOE, Bed of coals puts out 290 over 10seconds (more like 145 in practice). You'd probably end up spamming lava font (50 per second *5=250 every 4s) and Flame burst (120 every 5s) and Phoenix ~200 every 10s /inferno 135 every 10s (or Flame djinn's 120 every 10). Star Burst is atrocious, doing ~112 every 10s or so at the cost of an elite. The recharges on Liquid Flame/Double Dragon leave a lot to be desired (15s) and those put out 112 or so listed akin to Fireball.

The reason why Eles are superb farmers of low level mobs like in Ascalon or Kryta is because with mob levels <20 you get a free damage multiplier on all of your damage, whereas other classes get none (mesmers, necros) or very low amounts (assassins). It won't matter that your sustained damage is terrible if you can wipe a mob of 15+ with one or two spells chained in succession. In fact, that's probably the only time you'll ever see Lava Font being used. Paragons don't have AoE, Dervishes are limited to ~30-40 ele damage from their skills more or less except for Mystic Twister and Mystic Sandstorm along with a 3 target cap on autoattacks, and Rangers have Barrage which is capped in targets unless you run traps or whirling defense. That's why back before hard mode someone made a fan movie (The Kryta Bomber of http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Fozzy_Yeoryios fame) with an ele. Now even that's pointless: see Raptor farms with MoP + 100B, although it's on 20 cooldown.

Daeheru · Mar 09, 2011, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Alice_

1.) Mesmers did zero damage before their update and needed a PVE buff badly
2.) The Dervish primary attribute was absolute crap in PVE
2.) Both of the aforementioned professions could still be effective before their updates
3.) Communing spirits are still better than channeling spirits, SoS just made it popular to spam (the real imbalanced skill is not SoS but summon spirits)
4.) Rangers are AMAZING (if you argue with me on this you are doing it wrong) just cause ranger heroes stink doesn't mean people playing them do too.
5.) Warriors still get invited everywhere but maybe DoA, relax.
6.) NOTHING does more damage than even a decent human playing an elementalist.
7.) I play all professions in HM and ALL are viable.

I wouldn't say rangers are amazing, but definitely good with the right build. Most people just think that they have to either be interrupt, barrage, or BA but that's not the case. I like my Ranger's Expert's Dexterity build and I have a similar Glass Arrows build. Both of those skills are overlooked in PvE, Glass Arrows really only sees action in PvP (although not as much as it used to due to nerf) and Expert's Dexterity most people just look over. Prepared Shot is pretty good also. Admittedly, pets aren't too useful and Wilderness Survival elites could use some work. With the right build, Rangers are NOT as bad as people think. And you don't need to run a scythe build to be a good ranger either.

Same applies for ele. With the right build they are great. However, they do have a lot of useless skills. Water and Earth magic aren't very useful in PvE. Water sees hardly any action unless you're doing an SC somewhere and trying to ball and nuke a mob. Earth doesn't see any use other than tanking in farming and SCs. In general PvE, neither one of these attributes are that good. Air is a little better, it's more useful. Fire is of course where the big damage is as always. It's all about the build, the problem is that the most effective builds for ele in general pve don't even rely on ele skills. AP+YMLaD+PI+EVAS anyone? That build rocks, but those are the 4 main skills of that bar and none of them are ele skills, the other 4 slots are completely optional. There are a few nuking builds that are good though, people just have to think outside the meta. All that eles need are more useful skills as many of them are just bad *coughSecondWindcough* *coughSwirlingAuracough.*

Basically Rangers can be good and Eles need a buff because their own skills are rather useless in HM as far as damage goes.